江青《谈京剧革命》（英文版）在《北京周报》上刊出【1967年5月】

　　李克勤(jixuie)题记：八个样板戏作为一个整体，具有里程碑意义，这在毛主席革命文艺路线指引下，由江青抓的一个系统工程。1964年江青的一个讲话，后在1967年发表时取名《谈京剧革命》，除了各大报登出外，《北京周报》还登出了英文版。

　　1967年5月10日《人民日报》登出《谈京剧革命》，这是1964年7月江青在京剧现代戏观摩演出人员的座谈会上的讲话。

　　01

　　《北京周报》封面(1967年5月12日)：

　　以下为中英文对照文本

　　我对这次演出表示祝贺。大家付出了很大的劳动，这是京剧革命的第一个战役，已经取得了可喜的收获，影响也将是比较深远的。

　　I offer you my congratulations on the festival, for which you have worked so hard. This is the first campaign in the revolution of Peking opera. It has achieved promising results and will have relatively far-reaching influence.

　　【济学感言：如果用英文作为辅助理解，似乎对原文可以理解的更深、更透彻一些。】

　　京剧革命现代戏是演起来了，可是，大家的认识是否都一样了呢?我看还不能这样说。

　　Peking opera on revolutionary contemporary themes has now been staged. But do we all look at it in the same way? I don't think we can say so yet.

　　【济学感言：这里提了一个真问题——“大家的认识是否都一样了呢?”】

　　对京剧演革命的现代戏这件事的信心要坚定。在共产党领导的社会主义祖国舞台上占主要地位的不是工农兵，不是这些历史真正的创造者，不是这些国家真正的主人翁，那是不能设想的事。我们要创造保护自己社会主义经济基础的文艺。在方向不清楚的时候，要好好辨清方向。我在这里提两个数字供大家参考。这两个数字对我来说是惊心动魄的。

　　We must have unshakable confidence in the staging of Peking operas on revolutionary contemporary themes. It is inconceivable that, in our socialist country led by the Chinese Communist Party, the dominant position on the stage is not occupied by the workers, peasants and soldiers, who are the real creators of history and the true masters of our country. We should create literature and art which protect our socialist economic base. When we are not clear about our orientation, we should try our best to be so. Here I would like to give two groups of figures for your reference. These figures strike me as shocking.

　　【济学感言：这个说法切中要害——“我们要创造保护自己社会主义经济基础的文艺”。这体现了对经济基础与上层建筑关系的深刻把握。】

　　第一个数字是：全国的剧团，根据不精确的统计，是三千个(不包括业余剧团，更不算黑剧团)，其中有九十个左右是职业话剧团，八十多个是文工团，其余两千八百多个是戏曲剧团。在戏曲舞台上，都是帝王将相、才子佳人，还有牛鬼蛇神。那九十几个话剧团，也不一定都是表现工农兵的，也是“一大、二洋、三古”，可以说话剧舞台也被中外古人占据了。剧场本是教育人民的场所，如今舞台上都是帝王将相、才子佳人，是封建主义的一套，是资产阶级的一套。这种情况，不能保护我们的经济基础，而会对我们的经济基础起破坏作用。

　　Here is the first group: according to a rough estimate, there are 3,000 theatrical companies in the country (not including amateur troupes and unlicensed companies). Among these, around 90 are professional modern drama companies, 80 odd are cultural troupes, and the rest, over 2,800, are companies staging various kinds of operas and balladry. Our operatic stage is occupied by emperors and kings, generals and ministers, scholars and beauties, and, on top of these, ghosts and monsters. As for those 90 modern drama companies, they don't necessarily all depict the workers, peasants and soldiers either. They, too, lay stress on staging full-length plays, foreign plays and plays on ancient themes. So we can say that the modern drama stage is also occupied by ancient Chinese and foreign figures. Theatres are places to educate the people, but now the stage is dominated by emperors and kings, generals and ministers, scholars and beauties -- by feudal and bourgeois stuff. This state of affairs cannot serve to protect but will undermine our economic base.

　　【济学感言：帝王将相、才子佳人——这些个玩意，曾经被批判得十分彻底的。】

　　第二个数字是：我们全国工农兵有六亿几千万，另外一小撮人是地、富、反、坏、右和资产阶级分子。是为这一小撮人服务，还是为六亿几千万人服务呢?这问题不仅是共产党员要考虑，而且凡有爱国主义思想的文艺工作者都要考虑。吃着农民种的粮食，穿着工人织造的衣服，住着工人盖的房子，人民解放军为我们警卫着国防前线，但是却不去表现他们，试问，艺术家站在什么阶级立场，你们常说的艺术家的“良心”何在?

　　And here is the second group of figures: there are well over 600 million workers, peasants and soldiers in our country, whereas there is only a handful of landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, bad elements, Rightists and bourgeois elements. Shall we serve this handful, or the well over 600 million? This question calls for consideration not only by Communists but also by all those literary and art workers who are patriotic. The grain we eat is grown by the peasants, the clothes we wear and the houses we live in are woven and built by the workers, and the People's Liberation Army stands guard at the fronts of national defence for us and yet we do not portray them on the stage. May I ask which class stand you artists take? And where is the artists' "conscience" you always talk about?

　　【济学感言：艺术家的阶级立场，不谈这个不行。】

　　京剧演革命的现代戏这件事还会有反复，但要好好想想我在上面说的两个数字，就有可能不反复，或者少反复。即使反复也不要紧，历史总是曲曲折折前进的，但是，历史的车轮绝不能拉回来。我们提倡革命的现代戏，要反映建国十五年来的现实生活，要在我们的戏曲舞台上塑造出当代的革命英雄形象来。这是首要的任务。我们也不是不要历史剧，在这次观摩演出中，革命历史剧占的比重就不小。描写我们党成立以前人民的生活和斗争的历史剧也还是要的，而且也要树立标兵，要搞出真正用历史唯物主义观点写的、能够古为今用的历史剧来。当然，要在不妨碍主要任务(表现现代生活、塑造工农兵形象)的前提下来搞历史剧。传统戏也不是都不要，除了鬼戏和歌颂投降变节的戏以外，好的传统戏都尽可上演。但是，这些传统戏如果不认真整理加工，是没有什么人看的。我曾系统地下剧场两年多，观察了演员、观众，可以得出结论，传统戏如果不认真进行加工，是不会有人看的。今后传统戏的整理、加工工作还是要的，但是，所有这些都不能代替第一个任务。

　　For Peking opera to present revolutionary contemporary themes will not be all plain sailing, there will be reverses; but if you consider carefully the two groups of figures I have mentioned above, there may be no reverses, or at least fewer of them. Even if there are reverses, it won't matter, because history always goes forward on a zigzag course but its wheels can never be made to turn backwards. It is our view that opera on revolutionary contemporary themes must reflect real life in the 15 years since the founding of our Chinese People's Republic, and that images of contemporary revolutionary heroes must be created on our operatic stage. This is our foremost task. Not that we don't want historical operas. Revolutionary historical operas have formed no small proportion of the programme of the present festival. Historical operas portraying the life and struggles of the people before our Party came into being are also needed. Moreover, we need to foster some pace-setters, to produce some historical operas which are really written from the standpoint of historical materialism and which can make the ancient serve the present. Of course, we should take up historical operas only on the condition that the carrying out of the main task (that of portraying contemporaгy life and creating images of workers, peasants and soldiers) is not impeded. Not that we don't want any traditional operas either. Except for those about ghosts and those extolling capitulation and betrayal, good traditional operas can all be staged. But these traditional operas will have no audience worth mentioning unless they are carefully re-edited and revised. I have made systematic visits to theatres for more than two years and my observation of both actors and audiences led me to this conclusion. In future, the editing and revising of traditional operas is necessary, but this work must not replace our foremost task.

　　【济学感言：“反复”，虽然难免，但是要尽力避免。】

　　其次，说说从何着手的问题。

　　I will next discuss the question of where we ought to begin.

　　我认为，关键是剧本。没有剧本，光有导演、演员，是导不出什么，也演不出什么来的。有人说：“剧本，剧本，一剧之本。”这话是很对的。所以，一定要抓创作。

　　I think the key question is that you have to have plays. If you have only directors and actors and no plays there is nothing to be directed or acted. People say that plays form the basis of theatrical productions. I think that is quite true. Therefore attention must be devoted to creative writing.

　　这些年，戏剧创作远远落后于现实，京剧的创作更谈不到。编剧的人少，又缺乏生活，当然创作不出好剧本来。抓创作的关键是把领导、专业人员、群众三者结合起来。我最近研究了《南海长城》的创作经验，他们就是这样搞的，先由领导出个题目，剧作者三下生活，并且亲身参与了一次歼灭敌人特务的军事行动。剧本写好之后，广州部队的许多负责同志都亲自参加了剧本的讨论。排演以后，广泛征求意见，再改。这样，不断征求意见，不断修改，所以能在较短时间内搞出这样及时反映现实斗争的好戏来。

　　In the last few years the writing of new plays has lagged far behind real life. This is even more true in the writing of libretti for Peking opera. Playwrights are few and they lack experience of life. So it is only natural that no good plays are being created. The key to tackling the problem of creative writing is the formation of a three-way combination of the leadership, the professional theatrical artists and the masses. Recently, I studied the way in which the play Great Wall Along the Southern Sea was created and I found that they did it exactly like this. First the leadership set the theme. Then the playwrights went three times to acquire experience of what life was really like. They even took part in a military operation to round up enemy spies. When the play was written, many leading members of the Kwangchow military command took part in discussions on it, and after it had been rehearsed, opinions were widely canvassed and revisions made. In this way, as a result of constantly asking for opinions and constantly making revisions they succeeded in turning out in a fairly short time such a good play that is a topical reflection of real life struggle.

　　上海市委抓创作，柯庆施同志亲自抓。各地都要派强的干部抓创作。

　　In the case of the Shanghai Municipal Party Committee it was Comrade Ko Ching-shih himself who came to grips with this problem of creative writing. All localities must appoint competent cadres to handle the question of creative writing.

　　短时间内，京剧要想直接创作出剧本来还很难，不过，现在就要抽出人来，先受些专门训练，然后放下去生活，可以先写小戏，再逐渐搞出大戏来。小戏搞得好也很好。

　　It will be difficult for some time yet to create libretti directly for Peking opera. Nevertheless, people have to be appointed right now to do the job. They must first be given some special training and then go out to get some experience of life. They can begin by writing something small and gradually work out full-length operas. Small works, if well written, are also very valuable.

　　在创作上，要培养新生力量，放下去，三年五年就会开花结果。

　　In creative writing, new forces must be cultivated. Send them out into the world and in three to five years they will blossom and bear fruit.

　　另一方面是移植，这也好。

　　Another way to get plays is by making adaptations and this is also useful.

　　移植要慎重选择，第一看政治倾向好不好，第二要看与本剧团条件是否合适。移植时，要好好分析原作，对人家的长处要肯定下来，不能改变;对人家的弱点，要加以弥补。改编的京剧，要注意两方面的问题：一方面要合乎京剧的特点，有歌唱，有武打，唱词要合乎京剧歌唱的韵律，要用京剧的语言。否则，演员就无法唱。另一方面，对演员也不要过分迁就，剧本还是要主题明确，结构严谨，人物突出，不要为了几个主要演员每人来一段戏而把整个戏搞得稀稀拉拉的。

　　Theatrical items for adaptation must be carefully chosen. First, we must see whether or not they are good politically and secondly whether or not they suit the conditions of the company concerned. Serious analysis of the original must be made when adapting it, its good points must be affirmed without unnecessary changes, while its weak points must be compensated. In adapting for Peking opera attention must be paid to two main questions: on the one hand the adaptations must ensure that they are in keeping with the characteristics of Peking opera, with singing and acrobatics, and the words must fit in with the rhymes in Peking opera singing. The language characteristic of Peking opera must be adopted. Otherwise the performers will not be able to sing. On the other hand, excessive concessions should not be made to the performers. An opera must have a clear-cut theme with a tightly knit structure and striking characters. It must never arise that, in order for a few principal performers to have star parts, the whole opera is made diffuse and flat.

　　京剧艺术是夸张的，同时，一向又是表现旧时代旧人物的，因此，表现反面人物比较容易，也有人对此很欣赏。要树立正面人物却是很不容易，但是，我们还是一定要树立起先进的革命英雄人物来。上海的《智取威虎山》，原来剧中的反面人物很嚣张，正面人物则干瘪瘪。领导上亲自抓，这个戏肯定是改好了。现在把定河道人的戏砍掉了一场，座山雕的戏则基本没有动(演座山雕的演员是很会做戏的)，但是，由于把杨子荣和少剑波突出起来了，反面人物相形失色了。听说对这个戏有不同看法，这个问题可以争论一番。要考虑是坐在哪一边?是坐在正面人物一边，还是坐在反面人物一边?听说还有人反对写正面人物，这是不对的。好人总是大多数，不仅在我们社会主义国家是如此，即使在帝国主义国家里，大多数的还是劳动人民。在修正主义国家里，修正主义者也还是少数。我们要着重塑造先进革命者的艺术形象，给大家以教育鼓舞，带动大家前进。我们搞革命现代戏，主要是歌颂正面人物。内蒙古艺术剧院京剧团的《草原英雄小姊妹》很好，剧作者的革命感情被这两个小英雄的先进事迹激动起来，写成这样一个戏，那中间的一段还是很动人的。只是由于作者还缺乏生活，搞得又很急，还没有来得及精雕细刻，一头一尾搞得不大好，现在看来，好象是一幅好画嵌在粗劣的旧镜框里。这个戏，还有一点值得重视，那就是为我们的少年儿童写了京戏。总之，这个戏是有基础的，是好的。希望剧作家再深入生活，好好加以修改。我觉得，我们应该重视自己的劳动，搞出来的东西不要轻易丢掉。有的同志对于搞出来的成品不愿意再改，这就很难取得较大的成就。在这方面，上海是好的典型，他们愿意一改再改，所以把《智取威虎山》搞成今天这个样子。这次观摩演出的剧目，回去都应该继续加工。立起来了的，不要轻易把它打倒。

　　Peking opera is an art that portrays things larger than life. At the same time, it has always depicted ancient times and people belonging to those times. Therefore, it is comparatively easy for Peking opera to portray negative characters and this is what some people like about it so much. On the other hand, it is very difficult to create positive characters, and yet we must build up characters of advanced revolutionary heroes. In the original version of the opera Taking the Bandits' Stronghold produced by Shanghai the negative characters stood out sharply, while the positive characters were quite colourless. Since the leadership attended to this question personally, this opera has been positively improved. Now, the scene about the Taoist Ting Ho has been deleted. The part of Tso Shan Tiao (the "Hawk"--nickname of the bandit leader) basically has not been altered (the actor who plays the part acts very well), but since the roles of Yang Tzu-jung and Shao Chien-po have been made more prominent, the images of those nagative characters have by comparison retreated into the background. It has been said that there are different views on this opera. Debates can be conducted on this subject. You must consider which side you stand on. Should you stand on the side of the positive characters or on the side of the negative characters? It has been said that there are still people who oppose writing about positive characters. This is wrong. Good people always account for the majority. This is true not only in our socialist countries, but even in imperialist countries, where the majority are labouring people. In revisionist countries, the revisionists are only a minority. We should place the emphasis on creating artistic images of advanced revolutionaries so as to educate and inspire the people and lead them forward. Our purpose in producing operas on contemporary revolutionary themes is mainly to extol the positive characters. The opera Littte Heroic Sisters on the Grassland performed by the Peking Opera Troupe of the Inner Mongolian Art Theatre is very good. The librettist wrote the script for this opera with his revolutionary feeling excited by the outstanding deeds of the two little heroines. The middle section of the opera is very moving. but because the librettist still lacks experience of real life, worked on it in haste and had no time to give it careful polishing, the beginning and the end of the opera are not so good. As it is now, it looks like a fine painting placed in a crude old frame. With regard to this opera, there is one point more to which importance should be attached, and that is that a Peking opera has been composed for our children. In short, this opera has a firm foundation and is good. I hope that you writers for the theatre will go back to experience the life of the people and try your best to perfect your scripts. In my opinion, we should treasure the fruits of our labour, and shouldn't scrap them lightly. Some comrades are unwilling to revise their completed works, but this prevents them from making bigger achievements. In this respect, Shanghai has set us a good example. Because the Shanghai artists have been willing to polish their scripts over and over again, they have succeeded in improving Taking the Bandits' Stronghold to what it is today. All the items in the repertory of the present festival should be given further polishing when you return home. The items which have been acknowledged as successful should not be thrown aside lightly.

　　【济学感言：可以看得出来，江青在道层面与器层面，都是行家里手。】

　　最后，我希望这次大家能抽出些精力来互相学学戏，这样，可以使这次大会的收获在全国的舞台上与各地广大的观众见面。

　　Before I finish I would like to express my hope that you will save some of your energy for studying one another's contributions to this festival so that people in all parts of the country will be able to see its achievements on the stage.

　　(本文由《红旗》杂志一九六七年第六期和五月十日的《人民日报》《解放军报》同时发表)

　　(Printed simultaneously by "Hongqi," No.6, 1967 and the "Renmin Ribao" and "Jiefangjun Bao" of May 10.)

　　【济学感言：早在2004年，我就把样板戏视频拿到课堂上结合管理课程，与同学们一起分享、讨论过的。我多次和学生朋友谈样板戏的创作，那是一种新的团队协作典范，是我们经营现代企业值得借鉴，值得学习的一套想法说法做法，经过像吴仁宝、王宏斌，以及任正非、胡伟武的实践证明，那是想得通说得通行得通的。】

　　02

　　江青讲话的水平怎样?

　　这里不多做评论，各位可以自己去看，去做评价。

　　这里说一下，经过几年功夫，八个样板戏的创作、修改，到了1967年就已经很有成效了，到了1970年就开始拍成电影，向全国普及推广了。

　　《中国戏剧史》有这样的记载：【八个“样板戏”的内容都有强烈的传奇色彩，《智取威虎山》就是其中最具代表性的一部。它是“样板戏”中最早出现并且定型的作品，改编自小说《林海雪原》，以东北地区的剿匪战争为题材，故事发生的主要场景是一支黑帮在深山老林里的据点，主人公杨子荣冒充土匪打入匪巢卧底，战争和间谍、惊险加悬疑，构成这出作品强烈的戏剧性，因此各地陆续出现多个自行改编的舞台剧版本。最后，上海京剧团改编的《智取威虎山》赢得了最高的评价，并且被当成范本，一经推广，全国各地的剧团均按此方式演出。】

　　八个样板戏是毛主席革命路线指引下，广大的革命文艺战士集体创作的。这个“集体创作”是当时剧本上写的。后来根据历史资料，我们发现有一个人在其中起到了非凡作用，这个人就是江青。江青在京剧艺术上是行家，对于现代芭蕾舞艺术她也是有非凡造诣的，至于电影艺术那就更不用说专业水平了。

　　八个样板戏原本是舞台上演出的戏剧，包括京剧、芭蕾舞剧和“交响套曲”，从1970年开始八个样板戏陆续拍成电影，这样舞台艺术与电影艺术的结合，形成新的样板戏电影艺术。事实证明，样板戏电影艺术，促进了戏剧舞台艺术的提升，同时也促进了电影艺术本身的创新发展。这一举措完全可以说这是在样板戏舞台剧创作之后，面向工农兵的大众文艺的新飞跃。我们是不是应该对所有参加制作的艺术工作者抱有一种敬感佩呢?同时对于从事组织工作的领导者也应该给予起码的尊重或者敬意呢?

　　八个样板戏作为一个整体，那是可以在全人类的文艺事业里来评价的。一般评价艺术作品，从两个方面着手，一个是思想性，一个是艺术性。缺乏思想的艺术作品，恐怕只能算作娱乐品;一部作品缺乏艺术性，思想再深刻也谈不上艺术作品，那只能是理论著作或者理论说教。八个样板戏无疑从思想到艺术，都创造了古今中外独一无二的奇迹，对这一奇迹的研究当然是需要从不同角度来加以解读的。这里把这一奇迹定位成文化奇迹，也就是这一奇迹是一种文化氛围带来的奇迹，同时在这一奇迹创造过程中，这一文化又得到了丰富和发展。当然这一奇迹的创造主要指作品的创作——怎样由道而器，从思想的诠释、传播，转换到艺术的表现与创作，进而使得艺术作品让观众想得通说得通，达成作品行得通的道器变通，这恐怕本身是一个浩大的工程，此工程的组织管理，既是科学的，更是艺术的。

　　马克思将《资本论》当做“一个艺术的整体”，那么八个样板戏无疑也是可以当做一个艺术的整体来看待的，只不过《资本论》是主要马克思一个人的作品，而八个样板戏则是集体创作的，因此要解释这个集体的创作，不能脱离这个集体共同遵循的道器变通之根之基，以及集体道器变通之变是如何想得通说得通行得通的，这些只能用文化来概括，即唯有在毛泽东文化这一氛围里，才能解释八个样板戏思想与艺术奇迹的产生过程。

　　我们都是历史唯物主义者，社会存在决定社会意识。社会存在，指的是就是历史真实的存在。

　　不尊重历史真实的存在，就必然走向搞历史虚无主义那一套。

　　针对历史，会有两种态度，一种就是搞历史虚无主义那一套的唯心史观，那是搞社会意识决定社会存在，终究是逃脱不了好猎手——广大人民群众雪亮的眼睛的。

　　我们要坚持的是另一种不同于唯心史观的唯物史观。

　　毛主席为何坚持把这个作为“吾党哲学的根据”?

　　这是极其深刻的，其中只有悟道，方能想得通说得通行得通——道器变通。

　　唯物史观是需要悟道的，如果不悟道，单纯从看得见摸得着的器层面看待事物，是不能感悟到那些无形的东西的，其结果必然滑向唯心史观。从而认为历史是由少数“英雄”创造的，进而在方法论上走向依靠精英的误区，最终导致失败的命运。

　　不要以为劳动人民只是被动地享受谁的“服务”，只有剥削阶级才会心安理得享受别人的“服务”，劳动人民本身就是为人民服务的最大的主体，这就是老话讲的“取之于民用之于民”的真正内涵。

　　李克勤后记：

　　洋为中用，与此同时还有“中为洋用”，一阴一阳之谓道，道器变通。